Talk:Lilith

Event
The information about Lilith bringing back the Prime Evils,etc. Is there a source on this or is it fanfic. It sounds great, but if it's just fanfic it shouldn't be in an article. 69.92.237.72 17:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Lilith is part of an event that was added into the game with patch 1.11. Some people don't quite consider her canon for this part (I do though), but she is also a major character in The Sin War trilogy (official novels). So yes, this page should definitely be here, although definitely needs updating to include The Sin War trilogy.

Atrumentis 14:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Image size
I don't see a reason for the image to be so large, it was already 50px larger than Andariel's. I think that if we're going to set Lilith's image at 400px, all the others should be set at that also. Breywood (talk) 10:56, July 31, 2013 (UTC)

◄► Tephra ◄► 12:32, July 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think its current size of 250px is fine.

On "By Three They Come"
In response to my edit of the D4 reveal cinematic section being reverted, I made it because it 1. was poorly written on a basic level. 2. had errors about the content of the cinematic, such as the shape of the blood construct and the sequence of events. 3. had baseless speculation given as fact including: KarmakazeRB (talk) 23:41, November 26, 2019 (UTC)
 * that Lilith caused an outbreak of cultists, which were confirmed to exist but were NOT attributed to her (I did in fact read the article).
 * that the 3rd adventurer was possessed. Disguise instead is logically assumed given before/after similarities of his character, the way that appearance was dropped like an illusion, and that it's unreasonable coincidence for adventurers to decide there's treasure in such a place and happen to find a summoning chamber and happen to be caught by someone intending to use it that was already there.
 * that the one leading the ritual is a cultist which means member of a cult, and is not potentially just his own actor. While "necromancer" only means "one who practices necromancy", and since the ritual is technically necromancy, it IS an applicable title.

Okay, there's an edit dispute going on, so I'm laying stuff out here.


 * There's no evidence that the location is Tristram. The trailer has visual callbacks to the D1 intro cinematic, but callbacks aren't confirmation. Given the iconography within the tomb itself, plus the location (Scosglen vs. Khanduras, only the former of which is in D4), I'd say the Temple of the Firstborn is far more likely, but again, that isn't confirmation.


 * There's no evidence that the man is a necromancer. Also, the summoning is bringing Lilith from the Void, not resurrecting her.
 * Stop removing the last line. It clearly states in the source Lilith's return has spawned a new wave of cultists and worshippers, but regardless of dogma, all prayers remain unanswered. If you have information that contradicts this statement, share it, but there's no ambiguity here.--Hawki (talk) 21:23, November 26, 2019 (UTC)

As for the outbreak of cultists, I now see it in one of the pictures in the article; it wasn't written in the article itself so I took it as speculation/misinterpretation of other lines. That aside, the evidence of it being Tristram is the shot of an abandoned town's church with a massive hole into the ground; this is clearly where Tyrael crashed in the introduction of D3. I also described exactly why he is a necromancer which requires merely definition (practice of necromancy, which is death-related or other black magic and doesn't specifically require resurrection, tho it is also arguable the ritual is resurrection anyway), while calling him a cultist is what needs evidence. Finally, both the description of the layout of the cinematic and the basic writing of the section were still poor.


 * Yes, you can point to it being evidence for Tristram. I still think that's a leap of faith, because among other things, it requires the contrivance of a tomb being there that was conveniently undiscovered all this time, in a cathedral that was built millennia after Lilith was banished (why would the Horadrim build a tomb to summon Lilith?), with said cathedral being cleared of gold by D3 (game mechanics aside). In contrast, Temple of the Firstborn is far more likely, because it's situated in the same region D4 takes place in, has the blood iconography (the way the blood moves through the sluices is taken from D3), and fits thematically. Point is, we can't specify it. The article can easily function without the location being specified, because any such specification at this point is speculation.


 * "Necromancer" is a term used synonymously with the Priests of Rathma 90% of the time, so it's not a term that should be used lightly. Also, what necromancy is going on bar the animated corpse? Lilith isn't being resurrected, she's being brought back from the Void. The adventurers are killed, not resurrected. If anything, what's going on is more similar to blood magic. If "cultist" is deemed too speculative, then leave it as "the man" or "an individual," because there's nothing to suggest he's a necromancer, nor is any necromancy being used. "Necromancer" is far more speculative than "cultist."


 * If you want to rewrite it, fine, but the problem with the rewriting is that it detailed the events up to the return, which aren't needed. Keep it succinct.--Hawki (talk) 22:14, November 26, 2019 (UTC)

Also, sign your posts.--Hawki (talk) 22:15, November 26, 2019 (UTC)

I don't agree that the cinematic is required to take place in a playable area (but it may even become playable in an expansion), and I think so easily dismissing the hole in the church's floor is what's stretching. Is there a source on the underground areas (entirely, if at all) being Horadrim-built, anyway? On all counts remember that presentations like this are designed for the general community, and might nod to the hardcore fanbase but won't depend on them. Also, I think you're still using an artificially strict definition of "necromancy" (whether in the real world if you briefly look into it, OR in game lore), while "cultist" needs outside basis, and I think avoiding giving the figure in question a description is the worst option of all. I also think that the entire thing being a setup by the necromancer (thus suggesting disguise over possession) is a logical conclusion for the viewer; like you said, the adventurers wouldn't just assume there was treasure, and they shouldn't just happen to come across the needed summoning chamber. Finally, the blood construct was just factually a triangle and not a pentagram. The section can leave out full detail of the cinematic and, if you absolutely insist, not mention Tristram, but should still be rewritten. - KarmakazeRB (talk) 23:41, November 26, 2019 (UTC)

◄► Tephra ◄► 23:56, November 26, 2019 (UTC)
 * The Witch Doctor has skills that could be considered necromancy. We do not call him/her a necromancer.

I've made a new edit to the section that addresses my main concerns and hopefully everyone else's too.

- KarmakazeRB (talk) 00:09, November 27, 2019 (UTC)


 * After the Horadrim defeated Diablo, they buried his soulstone in a secluded cave near the River Talsande. Above this cave the Horadrim constructed a great monastery from which they could continue to safeguard the soulstone. As ages passed, the Horadrim constructed a network of catacombs beneath the monastery to house the earthly remains of the martyrs of their order, and also used it to store the weapons they had used during their war against the Prime Evils. As time passed however, the Horadrim fell into obscurity, and with their passing, the cathedral fell into ruin.

The Horadrim pretty much built the whole thing. But that aside, we should leave it blank without confirmation. There's certainly no rule that the cinematic has to take place in the same region the game itself does, but it would still be a first for the series.


 * The witch doctor may use necromancy, but we don't call witch doctors necromancers. And, again, I'm not sure what necromancy is actually being used. The only thing that comes close is eyepatch guy being reanimated, which came off more as possession.

Anyway, it's a moot point. I don't have any issue with how the section's been rewritten with the latest edit.--Hawki (talk) 00:11, November 27, 2019 (UTC)

Eyes
Any idea why Lilith has mismatched eyes (heterochromia)? Any symbolism behind it? Terede 22:08, 04 November 2019 (CET)

power level
One thing that seems a bit confusing, if she is not a prime evil or even a lesser evil, how does she end up being more powerful than Andariel?

I could understand if somehow the children of Prime Evils somehow eclipse Lesser Evils, but I recall in D2 she was stronger than even the first of the Prime Evils you face (her dad Mephisto)

Did she have an interesting mom of some sort (an angel maybe?) which could've explained this? Or maybe in coupling with Inarius she took angelic power to herself when gestating the Nephalem? Tycio (talk) 00:29, 2 January 2021 (UTC)